The next is the transcript of the overall interview with NATO Secretary Basic Mark Rutte, which aired on “Face the Country with Margaret Brennan” on April 6, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are joined now by means of the Secretary Basic of NATO Mark Rutte in Brussels. Just right morning to you, sir.
NATO SECRETARY GENERAL MARK RUTTE: Just right morning. Just right to be at the program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Smartly, you’ve gotten been a hectic guy this week. And I do know NATO is a defensive alliance, it is not a industry alliance. And also you and Secretary Rubio have many times stated this industry warfare isn’t impacting NATO. However respectfully, how may just this pressure between allies no longer have any have an effect on? And are you involved in any respect that Eu international locations will transfer against different, possibly less expensive, markets like China?
RUTTE: I am not pronouncing it does not have an have an effect on on person allies, but it surely does no longer have an have an effect on at the alliance. There, Marco Rubio and I are at the similar web page, since the alliance is interested by ensuring we will struggle the Russian danger. We will be able to make certain that we will convey Ukraine, up to imaginable, jointly below U.S. management, to a sturdy and lasting peace, and that’s our laser focal point of the ultimate couple of days.
MARGARET BRENNAN: George Marshall — in Europe, you recognize, the person who changed into answerable for the Marshall Plan and serving to to rebuild after International Battle Two, related financial well being to political steadiness and peace. Do not those tensions make your process a bit of bit tougher?
RUTTE: To be fair, I do not imagine so. Sure, you are proper, there are tensions between allies on account of this- this tariff query, however this isn’t in regards to the alliance as a complete, as a result of there might be doubtlessly have an effect on at the economies, however to not an extent that it’ll have an effect on our collective protection. That is my company conviction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Ok. As a result of there may be this request from america and a decision you’ve got made your self to extend spending on protection. Proper? So the following summit is now going to be held in June, and leaders there are anticipated to hike the army price range spending objective from 2% to three%. The Trump management desires it all of the approach as much as spending about 5% on a rustic’s personal protection. So you are inquiring for that. On the similar time america is repairing its courting with Russia. How do you persuade contributors to spend extra to counter the danger from Russia, at a time when the U.S. goes nearer to it, and the U.S. is hanging financial drive on Europe?
RUTTE: Smartly, first at the U.S. Russia query. What Trump has executed since he got here into place of work is ruin the impasse with regards to this horrible warfare in Ukraine, as a result of we have were given to prevent the killing, we have were given to prevent the combating, and I commend him for that. And- and I will have to say, allies right here within the ultimate couple of days assembly with Overseas Ministers are totally supporting the U.S. effort to convey this warfare to a good and sturdy and lasting finish. And we will see — we need to see how some distance we will get.
However I imply, the truth that day at evening, the American management is operating on that is- is vital. After which with regards to protection spending the ultimate couple of months right here within the Eu facet of NATO, it’s staggering the quantity of billions coming in. It- it- it’s a must to evaluate this to the times of the Chilly Battle, whilst you have a look at the total protection spending now being ramped up in Europe- and we need to proceed doing this, as a result of, as I stated in December, if we might keep on with the previous 2% we can’t shield ourselves right here in 3 to 5 years. However with the billions — actually masses of billions coming in now from the Europeans, from — from — as an example, Germany, part a thousand billion, and such a lot of different Eu allies. It is truly spectacular, and — and that may lend a hand us to at least one, have a more potent NATO, as a result of we spend extra and we produce extra.
However secondly, additionally in NATO, which is truthful because- and that is to President Trump’s level, it method that we have got extra equality when it comes to what you are spending on protection, and what we’re spending right here at the Eu facet of NATO on protection. And we want that to develop into extra deadly as a company.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However on the similar time that President Trump is looking for a peace deal in Ukraine, there may be this parallel, separate effort to fix The usa’s courting with Russia. Reopening diplomatic amenities is being mentioned. Simply this week Kirill Dmitriev, an best friend of President Putin who is below sanctions, changed into right here in Washington assembly with Steve Witkoff, as you recognize. He stated in tv interviews, the U.S. and Russia may just paintings in combination on counterterrorism, within the Arctic and increase uncommon earths in Russia in combination. So does not the U.S. getting nearer to Russia undercut your efforts to counter Russia?
RUTTE: Smartly, I am not certain I totally would proportion your overview on what the U.S. and Russia are doing nowadays. After all, I am not within the room when most of these talks happen, however what I am seeing from a distance and listening to from my American colleagues and- together with the President, whom I visited a few weeks in the past in an overly a success assembly we had within the Oval Administrative center after which right through lunch. There’s this effort to convey this warfare to an finish. And as a part of that effort, the U.S. is truly attempting to- to- and- and at this second, as we discuss, that is Friday. Perhaps this has modified on Sunday whilst you air this, however on Friday, the ball obviously is within the courtroom of the Russians. They aren’t transferring speedy sufficient, is my affect, together with the affect I am getting from my American interlocutors, that- that Russia truly has to do extra to convey this warfare to an finish.
The Ukrainians are truly just about the American place. And we’ve got seen- we need to see how some distance the American citizens can get this. However I’m totally supporting that effort, as a result of this warfare of protection- defense, it changed into unsustainable in the long run, such a lot of other folks loss of life, such a lot of the Ukrainian infrastructure being broken, towns being destroyed. This were given to finish.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However, you simply discussed Secretary Rubio, who, on Friday, stated the Trump management sought after an entire ceasefire in Ukraine, however the Russians would handiest comply with a partial one. The U.S. took it as a result of he stated, quote, “it is higher than not anything.” Are you involved that Russia is dictating phrases?
RUTTE: No, I am not, as a result of I spoke with Marco Rubio, I am in common touch with the opposite contributors of the American management. I believe you guys are truly attempting, step by step, to get to a state of affairs the place this warfare can finish. However in fact, the Russia- Russians even have to bop the tango, and at this second they do not appear to take action, after which it’ll be tricky. However, the truth that you guys try, that the American management is all of the energy you’ll be able to project- task at the international level. You are attempting this as a result of we all know that- that the entrance line changed into transferring within the fallacious path. We all know that this warfare changed into transferring within the fallacious path. This was- this changed into no longer going to finish smartly, and already such a lot of other folks were- had been loss of life, so I truly commend your American efforts.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it your overview, is it NATO’s overview that Vladimir Putin isn’t making an allowance for finishing his invasion of Ukraine?
RUTTE: Smartly, we do not know. I believe that is the take a look at now, and we need to see —
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: — What occurs if he is not? Have you learnt what —
RUTTE: — what his response might be to the American proposals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper, what is the outcome? Have you learnt?
(END CROSSTALK)
RUTTE: So it is tricky for me to evaluate, however obviously we need to take this step-by-step. And till January this yr, not anything took place when it got here to bringing this warfare to an finish. When Trump got here in- President Trump got here in after his inauguration, he began this procedure. And- and it- it will take longer than we might wish to, however the truth that he tries is due to this fact additionally trying out the Russians whether or not they’re severe on this. We need to see over the approaching weeks how some distance he can get it, and I am supporting it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I needless to say. Basic Cavoli, who you recognize smartly because the Splendid Allied Commander of NATO, the U.S. generals right here in Washington attesting this week. He stated Russia intends to decrease U.S. management and affect. It’s actively accomplishing a destabilization marketing campaign inside of Europe presently to create strategic dilemmas for the U.S. What is occurring to NATO contributors right here, and is Russia succeeding on this destabilization marketing campaign?
RUTTE: Chris Cavoli is the ideal allied commander. He’s- he’s completely proper. What we’re seeing in Europe, but additionally within the U.S., however let me discuss for the Eu facet of NATO, is that the Russians thru cyberattacks, assassination makes an attempt, jamming business airplanes within the Baltic space, cyberattacks at the nationwide well being provider in the UK, chopping vital undersea infrastructure between Baltic international locations and Finland and in different portions of the Baltic, within the Baltic Sea. They’re accomplishing this marketing campaign. The excellent news is that as NATO, as collective, we’re a lot, a lot better, no longer handiest at assessing what is occurring, but additionally ensuring that we save you the following steps on this marketing campaign from taking place. And the Russians hate us for that, and we need to do that so Cavoli is totally proper right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In order that destabilization marketing campaign has no longer halted or paused as those makes an attempt to dealer peace had been underway?
RUTTE: Smartly, I imply, this complete destabilization marketing campaign is happening for years now and I haven’t any day by day overview, if it is on a scale from 1 to ten at quantity 9, or quantity 3. However the experiences we’re getting is that the Russians nonetheless very energetic. We’re nonetheless nervous about, as an example, the vital undersea infrastructure. However because of Chris Cavoli and in his function as Splendid Allied Commander, we’ve got, in lower than 10 days, introduced in combination a large enterprise by means of Eu NATO allies in the- within the Baltic Sea to truly make it very tricky for the Russians to proceed doing this. And once more, they- they hate us for this, and I like that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are more or less about 90,000 or extra U.S. troops stationed in Europe presently. Secretary Hegseth stated Europe will have to no longer think that presence goes to ultimate ceaselessly. I do know you are saying that the U.S. is dedicated to NATO, however do you’ve got any sense of the way speedy or important this type of drawdown that is being discussed by means of Hegseth might be, and is there a NATO backup plan?
RUTTE: There are not any concrete plans for the drawdown. What we all know, and Pete Hegseth changed into very transparent in this, is this U.S. administration- however by means of the way in which, that is U.S. coverage since 2010 to pivot extra against Asia, against the Indo-Pacific. And the settlement we’ve got is that we can do no matter is vital in a no surprises approach. So if it will be significant to attract down or to pivot extra against Asia, to do it in some way that we will truly atone for that, take time, do it step-by-step, as a result of that’s vital, as a result of then this considerations the total protection and the phrases of NATO territory.
And on the similar time, I totally recognize the truth that U.S. has, america, has extra theaters to wait to, no longer handiest the Euro-Atlantic, but additionally the Indo-Pacific. And by means of the way in which, additionally, because of President Trump and his place in this, as NATO, we can be increasingly more energetic within the Indo-Pacific with our companions. I will be able to talk over with Japan subsequent week to have my conferences there with the senior management to look how we will accentuate that sturdy courting we have already got with the Indo-Pacific.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I wish to ask you about nuclear deterrence. The United States and UK are declared nuclear powers, and so they give, by means of extension, NATO some defense. The leaders of Germany, of Poland and France have lately stated issues about increasing a nuclear umbrella as a result of they’re involved that The usa is not going to be as dedicated to their protection. Have you ever had any conversations about an alternative choice to america nuclear umbrella, or bringing France’s arsenal into it?
RUTTE: No, I did not. And — and Marco Rubio this week mainly repeated what President Trump has stated 3 times now on tv: that- that america is totally dedicated to NATO, is totally dedicated to Article 5. That comes with america being without equal guarantor, in the course of the nuclear deterrent, for NATO territory, together with, and in particular in fact, the Eu a part of NATO —
MARGARET BRENNAN: –So the French are fallacious once they elevate that?
RUTTE: –And what I am urging my Eu colleagues to do is to place at the tv and every now and then concentrate to the senior American management with regards to NATO, as a substitute of being concerned repeatedly about, ‘Is- is america nonetheless dedicated to NATO?’ The solution is sure, it’s been persistently popping out of the American device over the past 3 months. Together with the expectancy that at the Eu facet of NATO and the Canadian facet, we can proceed ramping up protection spending, as a result of that’s handiest truthful, and we’re doing it. And that is the reason the excellent news.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper. That is not my overview. That changed into the leaders of France, Poland, and Germany, sir, as you recognize. You may have raised worry that China is development against 1,000 nuclear warheads by means of 2030. Is that an immediate danger to NATO?
RUTTE: It’s. It’s an immediate danger to the steadiness in the entire international, together with NATO territory, completely. They have got now extra army ships crusing than america. We’ve got an issue, america a part of NATO, the Canadian a part of NATO, Eu a part of NATO, that we aren’t generating sufficient protection business merchandise. We’re generating in a complete yr in ammunition what Russia is generating in 3 months. Russia has handiest 5% of NATO economic system, when put next. So we’re 20 occasions larger, the total NATO economic system, than Russia, and Russia is generating 4 occasions extra in ammunition than the entire of NATO is generating in a yr. That is- that is utterly loopy, and that’s the reason why the President and I mentioned, and the opposite senior leaders within the U.S. and I mentioned, additionally with Eu allies, that we have got no longer handiest to ramp up spending, but additionally the protection business manufacturing. That comes with chopping the purple tape, each within the U.S. and right here in Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Simply to temporarily explain, China’s nuclear arsenal is an immediate danger to NATO?
RUTTE: Smartly, it- it is there no longer for use towards China. So it’s there as a deterrence or regardless of the objective is. However I’d say extra normally, let’s no longer be naive about China. The building up in their military is going down at a tempo which is improbable. And once we speak about Ukraine, and bringing Ukraine to a sturdy finish and a peace, a sturdy peace finally, let’s no longer fail to remember that Russia is operating with North Korea and China and Iran. And that finally, there may be an target market of 1 gazing what comes out of this. And that’s the first Secretary of the Communist Celebration of China, Xi Jinping. And he’s going to assess, when there’s a deal on Ukraine, who comes out on most sensible: is it the West, or is it Russia? And whether it is Russia, he would get his ideas going about his territorial claims within the Indo-Pacific. And we all know he has them. Take Taiwan, and so forth. So there are giant dangers concerned, and that’s the reason why we need to convey Ukraine to a peace which is lasting, and that Putin won’t ever do this once more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary Basic, thanks on your time.
RUTTE: Thanks.
